Please share your experience of D&A Experimental off-events
« on: September 12, 2010, 10:57:19 am »
In this topic I do announce actual airport UNICOM or CTAF frequencies... to keep comms inside the area of the airports, and not annoy flyers in Tokyo ... but I think that we should FIRST use 122.95 and monitor it until we have contact with a pilot in the area.

Please also reply to this post telling a bit about your experience of this multiplayer "experimental" project at those focus airports.

"I flew around Ferguson (82J), alone, yesterday| and also visited their nice website. Nice view of area lying near the Gulf of Mexico... and the Pensacola Air Force Naval Base, in western Florida at the border of Alabama. One thought : we may have to choose "controlled" airports of classes D, C and B ... in order to welcome adventurous controllers that want to learn a new airport area| and that may also have a time zone permitting to be controlling off-events or off peak hours...  :geek: "
Gilles | CYUL | PRP Coach | Founder of the "TANGO SQUADRON" - BVA member since July 31st 2008


Re: D&A - off-events announcement : Featured airports 82J & 1B9
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2010, 01:56:16 pm »
It would be nice to have a specific day and time shown as an event on the main web page. This would allow for more people to know about it and really allow for some realism when there are several other Planes coming and goin at the same time.

I will be flying 82J from 8 to 10 eastern tonight Sunday the 12th.  So come join in and have some fun.

I think controllers can jump in at the nearest control tower, in this case KPNS. So if you want to fly out of or into control airspace to and from the uncontrolled airport it would be cool. Also KMOB (Mobile Alabama) is only a 35 min flight from 82J if controllers want. Both have ILS approaches. I would not mind flying from 82J to one of them shoot an ILS and back to 82J for some T & G's. Learning to go from controller to unicom with airport in sight. Again check out the website for 82J. For an uncontrolled airport it has a tricky entry for and exiting the pattern.

Lovin it.

Thanks
Bulleman70 (9188G)

Re: D&A - off-events announcement : Featured airports 82J & 1B9
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2010, 02:34:55 pm »
Quote from: "Bulletman70"
I will be flying 82J from 8 to 10 eastern tonight Sunday the 12th.  So come join in and have some fun.

Why don't you fly within the Boston ARTCC tonight? There are at least 6 controllers signed up to control.

Check out the ATC Timetable: http://www.bostonvirtualatc.com/dnn/ATC ... fault.aspx

In addition, there are two controllers that are training this evening and would really appreciate your traffic.


Isn't the whole point: Boston Virtual Air Traffic Control?


I'd also like to point out that when Gilles originally posted his ideas for this activity, in viewtopic.php?f=10&t=837
he said,
Quote from: "airtangofive"
This is a personal invitation to try a new concept for our flying activities when EVENTS are NOT in the focus... and when there are NO controllers active anywhere.

In addition he wrote,
Quote from: "airtangofive"
IMPORTANT : When ATC controllers are working at any other aiport, please join them and happily work together, this is priority at BVATC....
Brandon - bcarter755
   
Let Epsilon be less than zero.

Re: D&A - off-events announcement : Featured airports 82J & 1B9
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2010, 03:19:42 pm »
Quote from: "Bulletman70"
I will be flying 82J from 8 to 10 eastern tonight Sunday the 12th.  So come join in and have some fun.

Thanks for putting dynamics in this project. I understand that announcing a precise time to get together in a D&A event is a good way to gather a crowd.

My intentions are to have pilots use a SINGLE airport for their DEPARTURES or ARRIVAL, thus directing traffic TO/FROM an area. This is meant to "fill" the time outside of events times, and also outside of traditionnal group gatherings times like the evening peak hours.

The BOSTON area is our traditional and favorite playground for controllers and pilots alike... but we are left on our own off-events and off-peak hours... and some guys just can't make it with the crowd in the evenings... think of pilots outside EDT... this experimental project wants to serve those members. And add a bit of adventure to our experience.  |)
Gilles | CYUL | PRP Coach | Founder of the "TANGO SQUADRON" - BVA member since July 31st 2008


Re: D&A - off-events announcement : Featured airports 82J & 1B9
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2010, 04:49:36 pm »
Quote from: "bcarter755"
Quote from: "Bulletman70"
I will be flying 82J from 8 to 10 eastern tonight Sunday the 12th. So come join in and have some fun.

Why don't you fly within the Boston ARTCC tonight? There are at least 6 controllers signed up to control.

Check out the ATC Timetable: http://www.bostonvirtualatc.com/dnn/ATC ... fault.aspx

In addition, there are two controllers that are training this evening and would really appreciate your traffic.


Isn't the whole point: Boston Virtual Air Traffic Control?


I'd also like to point out that when Gilles originally posted his ideas for this activity, in viewtopic.php?f=10&t=837
he said,
Quote from: "airtangofive"
This is a personal invitation to try a new concept for our flying activities when EVENTS are NOT in the focus... and when there are NO controllers active anywhere.

In addition he wrote,
Quote from: "airtangofive"
IMPORTANT : When ATC controllers are working at any other aiport, please join them and happily work together, this is priority at BVATC....

I always give some time with ATC when there on.  There was not an event scheduled. I could move my sugestion to another night.  Understanding this server is about ATC it was discussed to have ATC available at nearby airports. On some none event night, controllers could fill in at one of these airports.  This is also about realism and there is more to flying than just ATC. I thought it would be fun to have something for the pilots in here. Since it takes airplanes and pilots for controllers to have something to do. By getting more planes in the air, we then have the need for more controllers. If it is all about ATC and not about flying then as a pilot I should look for a server geared more toward flying.

All in all we were just talking about one night here or there.

I don't know how old you are, but all you had to do is state that there would be Controllers staffed tonight. I did not need a lecture on rules or policies.

Re: D&A - off-events announcement : Featured airports 82J & 1B9
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2010, 05:53:46 pm »
What you say is so true, but...

Quoting you Bulletman :
I always give some time with ATC when there on.
There was not an event scheduled.
I could move my sugestion to another night.
Understanding this server is about ATC it was discussed to have ATC available at nearby airports.
On some none event night, controllers could fill in at one of these airports.
This is also about realism and there is more to flying than just ATC.
I thought it would be fun to have something for the pilots in here.
Since it takes airplanes and pilots for controllers to have something to do.
By getting more planes in the air, we then have the need for more controllers.
If it is all about ATC and not about flying then as a pilot I should look for a server geared more toward flying.
All in all we were just talking about one night here or there.

I don't know how old you are, but all you had to do is state that there would be Controllers staffed tonight. I did not need a lecture on rules or policies. / end quote
..........................................................................................

What is put in our replies and long quotes is actually information, maybe repeated again, but intended for members that are new or that need to have "the big picture" set again to follow. Age is not a factor, as is 122.95 communication from a distant flyer... sadly too far away!  |)

BVATC is a growing organization, and we are working together towards the goals you want to achieve. Events are part of that. Tonight as a peak hour time also, and it is becoming a tradition almost every night now...  but there are also new developments.

United Airlines Regional (UALR) is making a new tradition of Thursday nights to have commercial jets pack in to give heavy work loads on controllers. Cape Air is striving to bring many new pilots into being active with twin engines, and growing to turbo props. The Share the Cockpit program is growing and wants to help all new members and not so new to enjoy true pilotage and mimick a flight school. Our experimental project of DEPARTURE & ARRIVAL ... probably will bring this much wanted "communications coordination" between pilots and controllers... and also "flight coordination" between time zone seperated folks.

I must congratulate your efforts in bringing up "meeting ideas" as the one you proposed for tonight. Things are getting better because of our discussions and collaboration. Wait until the experimental D&A leaves the grounds of the FORUMS, and is announced on the website... with an "Off-Event's Timetable" for all members to participate in. Another project!  :)

Thanks Bulletman, I'm hoping for your help in bringing things changed for the better.
Gilles | CYUL | PRP Coach | Founder of the "TANGO SQUADRON" - BVA member since July 31st 2008


Re: D&A - off-events announcement : Featured airports 82J & 1B9
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2010, 06:50:53 pm »
Quote
United Airlines Regional (UALR) is making a new tradition of Thursday nights to have commercial jets pack in to give heavy work loads on controllers. Cape Air is striving to bring many new pilots into being active with twin engines, and growing to turbo props. The Share the Cockpit program is growing and wants to help all new members and not so new to enjoy true pilotage and mimick a flight school. Our experimental project of DEPARTURE & ARRIVAL ... probably will bring this much wanted "communications coordination" between pilots and controllers... and also "flight coordination" between time zone seperated folks.

The flying programs you listed above as good as they are, are geared around professional commercial ATC intergrated flying. My support for your program would be to put a little laid back real general aviation fun in the mix.

And yes age does have something to do with it. I am a 20 year GA pilot. I read and understand the english language very well. So in reading all your post I understood this would not interfere with other ATC. I did not need them repeated to me as if I were a kid getting out of line. If you want a more profesional atmoshpere then an adult way of going about it would help.

Again all he had to say is there would be ATC staffed tonight and could I support them and reschedule my request.
Thats pretty simple.

Note that there was not an event schuled tonight and no notification of the amount of controllers to be online. But probably would have notice when I joined multiplayer tonight.

Re: D&A - off-events announcement : Featured airports 82J & 1B9
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2010, 07:13:39 pm »
We recently introduced the ATC weekly timetable which shows ATC coverage for the upcoming week.

The following link will take you there:
http://www.bostonvirtualatc.com/dnn/Lin ... 96&mid=813

The link can also be found on the left side of the homepage.
Brandon - bcarter755
   
Let Epsilon be less than zero.

*

Evan Reiter

  • Training Administrator
  • 6216
Re: D&A - off-events announcement : Featured airports 82J & 1B9
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2010, 10:21:21 pm »
For now, I'll stand on the sidelines and leave the discussion up to other members. However, to clarify, there is no official BVA policy that requires pilots to fly in controlled airspace. While we obviously encourage people to fly together and, when controllers are online, to fly into or out of airports that are controlled, pilots are -- of course -- free to fly wherever and whenever they choose.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with setting up a more relaxed, informal, pilot-central event that's being discussed here except that it means we may have controllers who aren't as interested in controlling with less pilots to interact with. For that reason, please also remember that there are literally hundreds of airports that are uncontrolled within the Boston and New York ARTCCs. I can't imagine why there would be anything wrong with setting up one of those airports (like KCON) for relaxed GA flying. That offers pilots the ability to have some time free from ATC if they so choose, but to receive flight following or IFR services as well. Like in real life, flying into a Class E airport on the server means you should switch to the UNICOM frequency and treat the airport as uncontrolled.

As a controller, I'd also like to remind pilots that switching airspaces on a consistent basis is remarkably challenging. Even at the local control level, there are several airport-specific procedures that greatly contribute to realism but that aren't easy to find. For example, think about the runway configuration, the special treatment of VFR/GA aircraft, or the pushback control at KBOS. These are things that we've learned by listening and reading what we can. Moving around on a regular basis removes this important aspect of realism from ATC. Now think about the Approach or Center side of things where you introduce several (or, in the case of an ARTCC like Los Angeles, hundreds) of new airports. There's terrain, restricted airspace, special procedures, etc. In fact, I know of controllers that won't control during Getaway events because of the amount of time it takes to familiarize ourselves with procedures, print out new charts, and be ready when someone says they're "ready to depart Big Bear for a VFR local flight to the north". When I'm flying on the server, landing at KLAX isn't much different than KBOS (except that I'm a little more likely to get lost). But controlling at KLAX requires a whole lot more preparation. For that reason, I don't know how possible it would be to feature ATC at different locations beyond the frequency that we already do (once or twice per week except during Getaways).

Quote from: "Bulletman70"
The flying programs you listed above as good as they are, are geared around professional commercial ATC intergrated flying. My support for your program would be to put a little laid back real general aviation fun in the mix.
Don't forget about the General Aviation Fly-In event!

Quote from: "Bulletman70"
And yes age does have something to do with it. I am a 20 year GA pilot. I read and understand the english language very well. So in reading all your post I understood this would not interfere with other ATC. I did not need them repeated to me as if I were a kid getting out of line. If you want a more profesional atmoshpere then an adult way of going about it would help. Again all he had to say is there would be ATC staffed tonight and could I support them and reschedule my request. Thats pretty simple.
I haven't been able to control as much as I would like to recently now that I'm back to the grind of third-year university, but whenever I've been online, I've always seen you flying with ATC. Hearing from professional, competent pilots on the radios is always enjoyable as a controller, and I hope to see you online again soon. I appreciate every minute pilots spend flying with ATC... so thank you for doing it!


Evan Reiter
Training Administrator

Re: D&A - off-events announcement : Featured airports 82J & 1B9
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2010, 07:12:47 pm »
Having read for a second time all the posts in this sequence, and for some particular replies many times, to think things over... I must say that I understand everyone's feelings, and truly respect that. Sorry for any unintended impressions.

I thank everyone for their input. We will get somewhere with this experimental project.
.................................

Viewed in the FORUMS only, I have scheduled two small airports to say thanks to "bulletman70" and "gochase85", who replied with a concrete suggestion, and who I believe understand my goals and seem ready to build on this project with me.

So I ask "Bulletman70" and "gochase85", and all willing members, to suggest airports that could meet both pilots requirements and ATC requirements, for the time periods off-events and off-peeak hours...

These suggested airports would be inside ZBW and ZNY Centers, for now. Concord Muni is a class "E" airport with a longest runway of 6000'... But for bigger airplanes we might need longer runways.

I understand the needed ATC learning workload, so we could propose to have controlled airports in classes D, C ... as our featured airports (passage points for D&A). For the time being, this might prove to be a good start to join ATC with pilots, and vice-versa.

I would also ask Evan, if it would be "experimentally" possible to announce OUR suggested airports on the website (as experimental), or even inside the ATC timetable... so more pilots and more ATC staff have a common announced selection to consider when they connect to the server, and freely choose their location.

I hope that this is one step in the right direction, for all of us.  :)
Gilles | CYUL | PRP Coach | Founder of the "TANGO SQUADRON" - BVA member since July 31st 2008


*

Evan Reiter

  • Training Administrator
  • 6216
Re: D&A - off-events announcement : Featured airports 82J & 1B9
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2010, 10:56:28 pm »
Quote from: "airtangofive"
I would also ask Evan, if it would be "experimentally" possible to announce OUR suggested airports on the website (as experimental), or even inside the ATC timetable... so more pilots and more ATC staff have a common announced selection to consider when they connect to the server, and freely choose their location.
I'm still not sure you've convinced me that this is something most members would be interested in. Frankly, while I know many people do very well with UNICOM calls, other members are not as confident making UNICOM calls or understanding how the traffic pattern works at uncontrolled airports. Even real private pilots that have done all their training out of a Towered airport might have some difficulty entering a traffic pattern with 4-5 aircraft and no ATC to keep an eye on things.

Plus, our community is very strongly focused around ATC| our controllers are (in my opinion) what brings pilots to our server in the first place. Perhaps it's because I'm a controller here, but I can't imagine why we would create an event focused only on pilots with no ATC whatsoever. We already have a few events -- like the Domestic Journey -- that seem to be more geared toward pilot enjoyment than controller interaction which is fine (although it does make it a little difficult to find ATCs to control those events at times).

That being said, it's very possible I've forgotten a little bit about what it's like to be a regular line pilot. I know people really seem to enjoy 'pilot-only' events so I think there can certainly be room in our schedule for those if your experiments go well. However, at this point in time, I would encourage you to continue to test things out via the forums. We have gotten responses from about 2 extra people that will be willing to participate in this thread but let's see whether they actually do, and where that goes. If you find 5-10 people are regularly participating and flying into/out of focus airports, then I think we can consider posting something more official to other sections of the website. How does that sound?


Evan Reiter
Training Administrator

Re: D&A - off-events announcement : Featured airports 82J & 1B9
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2010, 12:42:49 pm »
Quote
I always give some time with ATC when there on.  There was not an event scheduled. I could move my sugestion to another night.  Understanding this server is about ATC it was discussed to have ATC available at nearby airports. On some none event night, controllers could fill in at one of these airports.  This is also about realism and there is more to flying than just ATC. I thought it would be fun to have something for the pilots in here. Since it takes airplanes and pilots for controllers to have something to do. By getting more planes in the air, we then have the need for more controllers. If it is all about ATC and not about flying then as a pilot I should look for a server geared more toward flying.


 Pleaser refer to Evans diplomatic offical post on BVATC's postion on this:  My opinion is derived from my past experiences of being associtaed with 4 or 5 different gamespy FSX servers that have all folded thru the past 6 or 7 years.  BVATC has the right formula for longevity growth and success. That formula keeps a tricky balance with ATC and Pilot motivations. The wrong Pilot motivated agenda's do not fit with that balanced formula.   Your comment does suggest your mindset does not make you an "ideal member" for a successful ATC oriented server.   Thats not to say you aren't an ok member.  Any member whos flys with us online and adds to our numbers seen in gamespy helps bring in new members.  But bluntly any idea or event agenda that  promotes little to no ATC involvement hurts us.  

What kind of events make a successful online FSX community?  Is it a bunch of flight enthusiasts flying together on VFR trips around the world?  Going on coast guard search and rescues?  Races around the world? Emergency helicopters chasing fire trucks?  Is it 4 guys BSing on freq as they Auto pilot the heavy tin on 3000 mile flights together? Is it a meeting place for Virtual Airlines to recruit pilots, Who then join together immersing themselves in a virtual professional pilot career and flying routes all over the globe. The Ideas/events for the FSX online pilot are cool and limited only by a pilots imagination. A pilots list of possible motivations stimulations are endless. All of us enjoy at some level those type of things.  But the "Ideal" members know and value Live ATC interaction, traffic, busy airports and busy communictions with live ATC more.
.
The successful FSX community is more geared toward what brings in and keeps ATC motivated, that being congested airspace with live traffic and busy comms on freq between pilots and ATC.  Any other diversion from that principle must be taken in very low amounts.

Chicken or the Egg.....what needs to come first?...The old question.
ANSWER:
I think the Egg comes first. ATC are our eggs. We need to Nuture and keep our eggs warm and happy ALL THE TIME! |)  Every minute, every hour, of every day, of every week, of every month. Of course that needs to be tempered with a few exceptions. (IE: domestic Journey) If we didn't nurture are eggs we would evently end up with just a few of the old hens flying around who keep coming up with new and fun ways to fly around together but eventually all you end up doing is picking s**** with the chickens.

 There would be no constant stream of new chicks coming surrounding a strong foundation of eggs. When we keep our Eggs thriving in sessions the CHICKENs come, stay and grow strong, which in turn brings more eggs to the hen house. ATC motivation and immersion in any online FSX session are limited to congestion and busy comm's. A much tougher group to nuture and keep happy, which requires a more stringent foundation of rules to cater to there prosperity.

Loc

Re: D&A - off-events announcement : Featured airports 82J & 1B9
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2010, 02:07:54 pm »
Chicken or the Egg.........In aviation history show me where ATC came first then they started flying airplanes.

You must lean a little more towards ATC than flying. Which is ok, as agreed without ATC it would not be as much fun.

But in earlier statements on these forums people talk about  making BVA as realistic as possible. When training to get your pilot certificate, learning how to use unicom at non controlled airports is part of the same section as ATC. Part of flying in the real world is knowing what to do in all situations. That means knowing how to enter, exit an airport and respond to other pilots, when there is no ATC. Most of the pilots in here would not even know where to go and look for info on these small airports of of there arrival's or departure's other than Airnav, unless you are a real pilot. This is a critical part of aviation and an event catering around it would teach these proceedure.

Most of you only know what you have learned from listening to or gathering info from airports like KBOS. Which are very busy airports. But there are controlled airports that you may fly into that may only have one controller and no specific departures or arrivals. All a controller would need to do is print out a diagram of that airport and get ATIS to know which runways to use. This would also be less stressful training  for new controllers. What protocal is followed a Class A and B airports are not used at smaller airports. You dont even have to have clearance at some of these airports.

To experience aviation as a whole there is no chicken or egg. You want true realism then you have to look at it as a whole.

Quote from: "evanet"
Your comment does suggest your mindset does not make you an "ideal member" for a successful ATC oriented server.
So being a real pilot with suggestion on how to make this a more realistic server is not an ideal member.
To be an ideal member is to have never flown a real airplane.

*

slayer816

Re: D&A - off-events announcement : Featured airports 82J & 1B9
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2010, 03:56:16 pm »
Class A airport?  Where?

In addition to having an attitude with everyone that disagrees with you,  even misquoting one, I don't think you are understanding what we are trying to say to you.

Its not about realism and its not about trying to argue who is more important:  pilots or controllers.

First of all,  the answer is neither.  They are equally important.  I agree that a bunch of controllers in a tower with no aircraft around is pretty pointless.  But let's take air traffic control out of today's picture and see how everyone turns out.  I'm pretty sure that after a few minutes of "uncontrolled" flying would be devistating with aircraft crashing into each other over the Grand Canyon....which is just the sort of events that the air traffic control system was designed to avoid!

Talking about realism,  how do you figure removing ATC from aviation realistic?  Even with all the "uncontrolled" airspace in the world, there is still controlled airspace above it.  You may not receive a PPL without being able to properly execute proceedures in uncontrolled airspace....but how will you achieve certification without doing the same in controlled airspace?

Its all a compromise.  And the same applies here in this community.   We strive to be as reastic as possible, and I think we do a pretty good job of it.  However because of a number of different factors...we do have some differences.

In terms of events,  no matter what type of flying you prefer...we have an event to cover it.  Same goes for controllers.  So for a minute let's forget about events.  From what I'm gathering, and please correct me if I'm mistaken, is that you guys would like to do something at an uncontrolled airport as opposed to just interacting with controllers like you always do.  

Great!  That would almost be something id be interested in myself.  However as a controller, ATC instructor, and an active member of a community with the words ATC in the title.....I have no desire to do that.  My problem is that although I feel that your ideas are important (I agree with many of your reasons for wanting to put this together), why is it acceptable to use our (the community's) resources to promote something that wants to pretend the air traffic control system dosnt exist?

You may not want to fly with controllers all the time because you're contantly under their supervision which prohibits you from practicing/experiencing "uncontrolled flight".  That's fine, I'm the same way.  You may wish to do something at the thousands of other airports across the world? That's fine also.  Almost every night, several members join up and fly to different locations on the planet.

So in the spirit of compromise, ill make a suggestion that helps everyone.  Like suggested above, join us inside the ARTCC or TRACON that has an active controller...and do your uncontrolled flying at one or more Class Echo airports inside those areas that are "staffed".  You still have the ability to stay on 122.95 if you wish but at the same time: radar services are available to those who request it. And probobly most interesting of all for controllers and other pilots receiving radar services,  we would have company we normally don't have.  I'm pretty sure as a controller I've said "traffic 2o'clock, unknown vfr" only a few times| when in reality.."controlled" radar identified traffic shares the skies with those "unknown vfr" aircraft everywhere they go.   Wouldn't that make a win-win situation for everyone?

Its impossible to make everyone happy but I think its a fair start.  I know for a fact you like flying with controllers.  Every night that I logon,  it seems your there having fun with the rest of us.  So is this just an issue of saying that in the real world, not everyone is controlled and while being radar identified constantly is enjoyable...its just not realistic to be unable to have fun at a non-towered airport?

That's ok,  we can coexist you know?  No need to go 1000 miles away with no atc. Consider what I'm saying,  that's all were asking.

Re: D&A - off-events announcement : Featured airports 82J & 1B9
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2010, 03:59:52 pm »
BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD, I realize that I'm suggesting an important change ...  :ugeek: Let's look at the "cold" numbers. You may want to bring other statistics about BVATC.
...................................................................
Membership: 09/14/2010 @ 19:36 ZULU
Latest New User    Latest: aflchrist84
New Today    New Today: 0
New Yesterday    New Yesterday: 2
User Count    Overall: 2308 members (ATC + PIlots + STC Mentors + Scenery Designers + UALR + Cape Air + ALL ... ) reachable through the website and e-mail.
.................................................................
ATC staff : 85 controllers, of which many have been inactive for some time ( 20 )  :  20/85 = almost 75% are active.
.................................................................
FORUMS : 308 users reachable through the forums.
.................................................................
Statistics from Cape Air membership : 80% US citizens, 10% canadian citizens, 10% of members outside US/CAN borders. = ... Active Pilots:  164   --- gives a good clue as to the countries with active members.
.................................................................
Weekly server use timespan at a cost with service provider (see Budget) :
24 hours/day  x  7 days =  168 hours.
.................................................................

Time, location, pilots and ATC.

 :arrow: Peak hours and Events included, at a rate of 3 hours per (EDT) nights, from 8pm to 11pm ... with ATC provided,  calculated as :
3 hours/day  x  (ideally) 7 days =  21 hours.  [Great for those who's personal agenda allows to join]
( 12,5 % of weekly time span)
.................................................................
 :arrow: D & A proposal is an EXPERIMENTAL ADDITION for OFF-Events times [ could develop in new peak hours times for people with different time zones, or accomodate them if they can't join regular events ] calculated as :
168 hours - 21 hours = 157 hours of pilotage convergence at ONE featured airport.

*** NOTE with D&A ... all ATC personnel is of course welcome, they are members... and if not too tired and able to control, this will prolong our member experience with them as a sure value in the amount of fun we will all have... all week long and more.

But, should no controllers be there, then:
Pilots will still want to fly and "revert" to UNICOM 122.95 and learn from this very much needed pilotage skill. Hoping for ATC, and understanding that they need a break.

With that said, all we need to keep growing... is stay and participate together. This BVATC giant of an organization has all the talents needed to be the best.

Let's keep giving every member the choice ( that they already have ) to fly or control and broaden this "timespan" where activity is enjoyable, for everyone... The world goes round 24 hours a day, 7 days a week... every week in BVATC's future... I will we there along with you!  :)
Gilles | CYUL | PRP Coach | Founder of the "TANGO SQUADRON" - BVA member since July 31st 2008